The Philosophy of Forward Lines | Ep. 87

0:52 Speaker 1: Welcome in everyone to another episode of Bruins Tape to Tape.

0:56 Speaker 1: I am your host this evening, Caroline. It is is

1:00 Speaker 1: April thirtieth. If you're listening to this, Yes, the Bruins

1:04 Speaker 1: are still not in the playoffs, but we are still

1:07 Speaker 1: getting together and tracking hockey. And what better way to

1:13 Speaker 1: kick off our summer season, so to speak, the first

1:17 Speaker 1: episode without any active Bruin news, then having a special guest. So,

1:22 Speaker 1: but first and foremost, I want to welcome in my

1:25 Speaker 1: fabulous co host, Maria. How's it go on? Maria?

1:29 Speaker 2: Oh, just scran, just scran. I'm actually you know, no,

1:32 Speaker 2: I mean, I mean that sincerely. It's kind of it's

1:35 Speaker 2: kind of refreshing to sit back and watch a little

1:38 Speaker 2: bit of playoff, really good playoff hockey. Even though we

1:42 Speaker 2: don't have a dog in the fight, there's been some

1:45 Speaker 2: pretty epic battles thus far.

1:47 Speaker 1: It is. I am very highly entertained. It's been an

1:50 Speaker 1: excellent first round. But as I mentioned, for those of

1:53 Speaker 1: you who are not watching on YouTube, we've brought in

1:58 Speaker 1: Professor Mo, friend of the pod, to come on and

2:04 Speaker 1: educate us a little bit. So, if you have been

2:07 Speaker 1: following our substack account, We've got a special little corner

2:11 Speaker 1: dedicated to Mo and his wisdom around all things hockey.

2:17 Speaker 1: So what better way to get ready for next season

2:21 Speaker 1: than to enlighten us, ourselves and our fans what a

2:26 Speaker 1: good team is actually supposed to look like. So welcome

2:31 Speaker 1: in Mo. How is it going?

2:32 Speaker 3: Thank you, guys, it's great. I appreciate you guys having

2:34 Speaker 3: me on again.

2:35 Speaker 2: We always love having you when your articles have been

2:39 Speaker 2: really really good, really thought provoking and entertaining.

2:44 Speaker 3: Good. Yeah, glad that's been working out. They've been fun

2:46 Speaker 3: to write, for sure.

2:47 Speaker 1: Yeah, highly enlightening. I mean, certainly, I think, you know,

2:52 Speaker 1: among the three of us, we've been fans of the

2:55 Speaker 1: game for a really long time. But at least for myself,

2:58 Speaker 1: there have been elements that I have learned a lot about,

3:00 Speaker 1: uh that I didn't know beforehand. You know, we talk

3:03 Speaker 1: a lot on this podcast about at least I certain

3:06 Speaker 1: you talk about it all the time that uh, you know,

3:10 Speaker 1: the Boston Bruins. It's it's a team, but it's also

3:13 Speaker 1: like a workplace, right and everybody has a job, and uh,

3:17 Speaker 1: it could be you have to be the goal scorer,

3:19 Speaker 1: you have to be the playmaker, you have to be

3:21 Speaker 1: the Uncle Nick kind of player. But besides the personalities

3:26 Speaker 1: that you need to have on a team to be successful,

3:30 Speaker 1: there are also actual jobs that have to get taken

3:34 Speaker 1: care of during a game. And Moe's first article is

3:39 Speaker 1: already out on substack, so you should definitely go check

3:43 Speaker 1: it out. It's a tape to tape MK at substack

3:46 Speaker 1: dot com. You can read that it's the forwards Philosophy

3:52 Speaker 1: and he's going to be uh putting out some more

3:56 Speaker 1: interesting content around this later this summer, so make sure

3:59 Speaker 1: you sub drives you get that into your inbox. You

4:01 Speaker 1: can get even more detailed. But before we dive in Maria,

4:06 Speaker 1: what has been happening around the rink? Has there been

4:09 Speaker 1: any big news that we might find interesting?

4:13 Speaker 2: Hot off the presses just before we started recording, is

4:18 Speaker 2: that Aaron eck Blad has been suspended two games by

4:23 Speaker 2: the Department of Players Safety. And in case folks haven't

4:27 Speaker 2: been paying attention to the Lightning Panthers series, the Florida

4:33 Speaker 2: Panthers are playing like their typical rat rats that they

4:40 Speaker 2: are they are right, and so Blad went after Hagel

4:46 Speaker 2: because Hegel knocked one of their guys out, which I

4:49 Speaker 2: again I don't have an issue with that, right if

4:53 Speaker 2: you do it cleanly. Now, the first hit that at

4:58 Speaker 2: Blad laid on Hagel should have been enough, but then

5:04 Speaker 2: Hagel Eckblad doubles down and basically delivers like an elbow

5:10 Speaker 2: to Hegel's chin. Hagel left the game, didn't come back.

5:15 Speaker 2: John Cooper lost his ever love in mind as well.

5:19 Speaker 2: He should have because they didn't even call a damn

5:23 Speaker 2: penalty on the play.

5:25 Speaker 1: It was.

5:26 Speaker 2: It was so egregious, so egregious, So you know what,

5:31 Speaker 2: it's it's about time, you know. And I know I

5:33 Speaker 2: had said that I had adopted them as my playoff team,

5:37 Speaker 2: but I even I last night had reached the end

5:41 Speaker 2: of my rope with some of the shit shenanigans that

5:47 Speaker 2: they're pulling, and then the tip for tap between Paul

5:51 Speaker 2: Maurice and John Cooper.

5:53 Speaker 1: We only hit guys in of shit. Okay, I'm entertaining.

6:01 Speaker 1: I have to say, he was starting to feel like inception.

6:04 Speaker 1: How many times are we going back and forth here? Okay?

6:09 Speaker 1: How many times are we going to play this pick

6:10 Speaker 1: a ball game?

6:11 Speaker 2: But anyways, that that was the big news that hit

6:14 Speaker 2: right before we started recording the other two pieces of news,

6:18 Speaker 2: as we all expected, is that coaches are starting to

6:23 Speaker 2: be relieved of their duties or moving on however they

6:27 Speaker 2: want to phrase it. But Mike Sullivan has parted ways

6:32 Speaker 2: with the Pittsburgh Penguins, and Rick Tackett has also parted

6:37 Speaker 2: ways with the Vancouver Canucks. So I've started hearing that

6:43 Speaker 2: the Rangers might be interested in Mike Sullivan, which is

6:48 Speaker 2: fine by me because I have a philosophical issue with

6:53 Speaker 2: having any players coaches that are related to each other.

6:58 Speaker 2: And for those of you who don't know, Mike Sullivan

7:02 Speaker 2: is Charlie McAvoy's father in law.

7:04 Speaker 1: No thank you, yeah, no, thank you.

7:07 Speaker 3: Do we even want to recycle coaches again?

7:09 Speaker 4: Though?

7:10 Speaker 2: No, we talked about that on our discord. I'm over it, mo,

7:13 Speaker 2: aren't you? I mean yeah, It just like the message

7:17 Speaker 2: will be fresh and new right, likely for a period

7:21 Speaker 2: of time perhaps, and then we might find ourselves in

7:24 Speaker 2: the same boat again where we're getting rid.

7:28 Speaker 1: Of a coach. Two three, I don't know.

7:30 Speaker 2: I don't even know if they last that long anymore

7:32 Speaker 2: in the Bruins organization.

7:34 Speaker 1: What's the shelf life?

7:36 Speaker 2: Should I call Charlie and ask him what the shelf

7:39 Speaker 2: life coaches moving forward.

7:42 Speaker 3: Well, four coaches in fifteen years is about five years

7:45 Speaker 3: a coach ish right, So.

7:49 Speaker 2: Well, according to Charlie though, you can't count bru'ce cassidy

7:52 Speaker 2: apparently not.

7:54 Speaker 3: No, that doesn't have I.

7:56 Speaker 1: Don't know what that was then five years Christ, what

7:59 Speaker 1: do we do? I don't even know anymore.

8:04 Speaker 2: And for those of you who aren't watching playoff hockey,

8:08 Speaker 2: you gotta watch playoff hockey because I tell you those

8:11 Speaker 2: teams in the West, whoever comes out of the Western

8:15 Speaker 2: Conference going into the next round, they're gonna have scars

8:19 Speaker 2: all over them because those teams are doing some serious

8:23 Speaker 2: battle against each other. And earlier in the week, like

8:27 Speaker 2: every series was tied two to two, yep, yep.

8:32 Speaker 1: So that means ultimately in the West, nobody is going

8:36 Speaker 1: to get through past the first round without six games,

8:40 Speaker 1: without six games, which is a lot and quite frankly,

8:43 Speaker 1: a lot of these matchups have been so balanced that

8:49 Speaker 1: I wouldn't be surprised if we see more two or

8:53 Speaker 1: more game sevens, which you really I mean, this is

8:57 Speaker 1: completely an uneducated guest, but from my experience of watching, like, yeah,

9:01 Speaker 1: game sevens aren't unusual, but they're not common. Like, it's

9:05 Speaker 1: not you don't have multiple game sevens in at this level.

9:12 Speaker 1: You have a lot of great games, you have a

9:13 Speaker 1: lot of overtime.

9:14 Speaker 3: But you know this is every series in the West

9:18 Speaker 3: could go seven.

9:20 Speaker 1: They honestly could. You know, they honestly could. Meanwhile, on

9:24 Speaker 1: the East Coast, everyone's going into overtime, So I don't

9:27 Speaker 1: know what that means. I don't need everyone's playing. Probably

9:31 Speaker 1: at the end, everyone will have played the same number

9:33 Speaker 1: of minutes. It's just whether or not it was in

9:36 Speaker 1: regulation or not quite frankly.

9:38 Speaker 2: Because well, the speculation I've heard from the so called

9:40 Speaker 2: expert is that whoever comes out of the Dallas Colorado

9:46 Speaker 2: series should be the ones in the Western Conference finals

9:51 Speaker 2: and going to the Stanley Cup.

9:53 Speaker 1: So we'll see.

9:54 Speaker 2: I mean, how much they'll have left by the time

9:56 Speaker 2: they get done with each other.

9:58 Speaker 1: But who's still physically standing.

10:01 Speaker 3: That's the thing.

10:01 Speaker 1: You never know, right. They could be an excellent team,

10:04 Speaker 1: they could be the best team. But if McKinnon goes down,

10:08 Speaker 1: if Sagan is done, if Otter is done, then it's.

10:14 Speaker 3: We saw that were Boston when Pasta got hurt the

10:16 Speaker 3: first shift against Florida.

10:18 Speaker 2: Yeah, sorry, no, are you here?

10:23 Speaker 1: To help us or hurt us.

10:26 Speaker 3: Definitely hurt. I'm going to make you guys feel a

10:28 Speaker 3: lot worse.

10:29 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I think, I think.

10:31 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, give given some of our subject matter here,

10:34 Speaker 2: we're going to find out how really bad the Brumins

10:37 Speaker 2: lines were here.

10:40 Speaker 3: But we got rid of Freddy, So I'm happy.

10:43 Speaker 1: Yes, that was your mission.

10:45 Speaker 2: But yeah, when I was right there, I was right

10:48 Speaker 2: there routing on, rooting on with you because uh yeah

10:53 Speaker 2: he I fell out of like with him in a

10:57 Speaker 2: relative quick hurry.

10:58 Speaker 3: Yeah.

10:59 Speaker 1: Yeah. So let's talk then about the philosophy of forward

11:05 Speaker 1: lines before we kind of dive into exactly what you

11:12 Speaker 1: believe every single line construction should be, what their jobs are.

11:17 Speaker 1: Where did you kind of come up with this philosophy

11:22 Speaker 1: and these ideas.

11:24 Speaker 3: So a lot of this philosophy just comes from watching

11:28 Speaker 3: hockey for the last thirty thirty five years. And also,

11:32 Speaker 3: I hate to say it, but playing video games is

11:35 Speaker 3: also kind of helped because video games always said your

11:39 Speaker 3: top two lines are your scoring lines and your bottom

11:41 Speaker 3: two lines are your checking lines. And so I've just

11:46 Speaker 3: kind of always had that philosophy just kind of ingrained

11:49 Speaker 3: in me growing up. It always seemed, you know, like

11:53 Speaker 3: the Joe Thornton, that jumbo line was always the top line,

11:56 Speaker 3: the scoring line. They didn't really play much defense. And

11:59 Speaker 3: then you got to you know, the twenty eleven Stanley Cup,

12:02 Speaker 3: and you had basically the best, most perfect fourth line ever.

12:08 Speaker 3: So it's just everybody, you know, like you said, Caroline,

12:11 Speaker 3: everybody has a job to play. Everybody slots in in

12:15 Speaker 3: a perfect world on a perfect team, and it's just

12:19 Speaker 3: one of those things where this this basic principle of

12:24 Speaker 3: like line construction and team construction just always comes back

12:27 Speaker 3: to the basics of these are what your guys should do.

12:31 Speaker 3: This is who should do, what your guys should play,

12:34 Speaker 3: the penalty killer or the power play or whoever it is.

12:36 Speaker 3: But if you can formulate four really good four lines,

12:42 Speaker 3: they'll stack up against anybody else and in the playoffs,

12:44 Speaker 3: that's how you get mismatches and that's how you win.

12:47 Speaker 1: So yeah, awesome. So let's talk about your first line.

12:55 Speaker 1: So we're we're going to start out initially talking more

13:00 Speaker 1: more again philosophically, a little bit theoretically, but we definitely

13:05 Speaker 1: want to then hear who in the past what ruins teams.

13:11 Speaker 1: You talk about the twenty eleven team being so well constructed.

13:16 Speaker 1: Give us some examples too, as you walk us through

13:19 Speaker 1: what this perfect line looks like.

13:22 Speaker 3: In the moverse the mo NHL twenty five. So no,

13:29 Speaker 3: it's so your top line, in my opinion, is obviously

13:34 Speaker 3: going to be at least your best players. It needs

13:38 Speaker 3: at least a sniper, And in my mind, a sniper

13:41 Speaker 3: is someone like Pasternak. He's someone that his job is

13:45 Speaker 3: to score goals. His job isn't to play defense. It's

13:48 Speaker 3: not really to play neutral zone or penalty kill. He's

13:52 Speaker 3: there to get you fifty goals a year and that's

13:54 Speaker 3: all he does. I know Pasta's knock is you know,

13:58 Speaker 3: he doesn't play defense and this stuff. But I was

14:02 Speaker 3: just thinking.

14:03 Speaker 1: That he's been.

14:06 Speaker 2: And again he gets shipped on in Boston sports talk

14:10 Speaker 2: radio for that, which is you know again. I try

14:15 Speaker 2: not to pay it any attention, but it infuriates me nonetheless,

14:18 Speaker 2: because it's more it's just fodder.

14:21 Speaker 1: To rile up sharply.

14:23 Speaker 2: So you were the same buffoons who have been saying

14:26 Speaker 2: for years the Bruins need a sniper. They have one,

14:30 Speaker 2: and then you crap all over him because you expect

14:34 Speaker 2: him to be something that right, it's it's not a

14:39 Speaker 2: regular part of his game.

14:41 Speaker 1: If if he if he grows into that aspect.

14:44 Speaker 2: Of his game, good for him, Good for him, But

14:49 Speaker 2: we want him to put the friggin puck in the.

14:50 Speaker 3: Net, right, Yeah, So you definitely want those guys, and

14:55 Speaker 3: then it's going to have to be players that compliment

14:58 Speaker 3: that person's playing ability. So typically it's it's going to

15:04 Speaker 3: be your guys that will get in the zone, get

15:07 Speaker 3: on pucks for check hard, but force turnovers and capitalize

15:12 Speaker 3: on those turnovers. So again, if you're looking at you know,

15:15 Speaker 3: the twenty eleven Bruins team, I mean your top line

15:20 Speaker 3: when they were healthy, you had Luch, Crecy and and Horton. Right,

15:25 Speaker 3: those are three guys. So you've got Luch, who's going

15:29 Speaker 3: to get in there?

15:29 Speaker 2: And just what was the truck driver that was saying

15:32 Speaker 2: over for those guys?

15:34 Speaker 3: Seriously? Yeah, Crecci, who's probably your second man in getting

15:38 Speaker 3: the park audishing it to Horton or whoever. I mean,

15:40 Speaker 3: Poverly was on that top line in the playoffs and

15:43 Speaker 3: we all know Rich Peverley was kind of crappy, but

15:46 Speaker 3: he played right. So if you have a good college player, oh,

15:51 Speaker 3: like Brown's a good HL player. Sorry, but you need

15:56 Speaker 3: those guys and so if you can, and again, if

16:00 Speaker 3: you look at like the Joe Thornton, Mike Canneuble, Glenn

16:02 Speaker 3: Murray line, none of them were great, but they played

16:07 Speaker 3: well together and they complimented each other so perfectly that

16:12 Speaker 3: no one wanted to play them. What were they, Maria,

16:14 Speaker 3: like the eight hundred pound gorilla liner stopped it? If

16:17 Speaker 3: I remember it was, it was awesome like Murray had. Yeah,

16:21 Speaker 3: Thornton had like a hundred assists and Murray had like

16:24 Speaker 3: fifty goals and it was perfect.

16:27 Speaker 2: Hence why those guys nearly you know, ripped Michael O'Connell

16:32 Speaker 2: to shreds when they found out that they had basically

16:35 Speaker 2: escorted Joe Thornton out the back door without even having

16:39 Speaker 2: a conversation with them.

16:40 Speaker 1: But I digress.

16:41 Speaker 3: Yeh, that's another episode.

16:43 Speaker 1: Right, Yeah we have old Gripes episode. Yeah, yeah, can

16:48 Speaker 1: we do one of those?

16:50 Speaker 3: So in my mind and I know we'll get to

16:52 Speaker 3: it later, but your top line is your best players,

16:55 Speaker 3: your your snipers. If you got a burgeron who can

16:59 Speaker 3: play defense, fine, but I don't think he technically has to.

17:03 Speaker 3: You know, that line has to be there, but they

17:05 Speaker 3: got to be snipers, and they gotta be your your

17:08 Speaker 3: top power play guys. Those they have to be there

17:12 Speaker 3: because I mean, that's that's how you win, is if

17:14 Speaker 3: you put the puck in the net and these guys

17:16 Speaker 3: have to be it. So if you guys want to talk,

17:20 Speaker 3: you want to talk who on this team? Maybe we'll

17:24 Speaker 3: get there.

17:24 Speaker 1: I will get there. I was going to get there.

17:27 Speaker 1: So us through Yourlleen, do we? So do we in

17:31 Speaker 1: your mind? Do we currently.

17:34 Speaker 2: Have a top line that fits the descriptors as you

17:38 Speaker 2: have just slaid them out for us?

17:40 Speaker 3: I would say two thirds of the top line.

17:45 Speaker 1: Yeah, right now.

17:48 Speaker 3: Well, so Caroline, do you want to get into this

17:51 Speaker 3: specifics or move on to the second line.

17:53 Speaker 1: Well, let's talk about the whole package and then see

17:57 Speaker 1: just how fase far so our second So tell us

18:02 Speaker 1: a little bit about your philosophy. Then what's the purpose

18:04 Speaker 1: of the second line.

18:06 Speaker 3: So your first line consider it like your elite scoring unit,

18:09 Speaker 3: right their their job is to score. So your second

18:13 Speaker 3: line is kind of to do both, right, score but

18:18 Speaker 3: also go against the other team's top two lines and

18:22 Speaker 3: shut them down. So again, if you think you had

18:25 Speaker 3: Marshan bergeron and whoever or else kind of played with

18:28 Speaker 3: those guys. Twenty eleven, they had Reki, right. Reki was

18:32 Speaker 3: forty years old and could barely skate, but he played

18:34 Speaker 3: with Marshan and Bergeran and they were perfect. So you

18:38 Speaker 3: want some consistent offense. Obviously, these guys are your top six,

18:44 Speaker 3: so they need to put the puck in the net.

18:46 Speaker 3: But again, if your top line is doing that, these

18:49 Speaker 3: guys go against the other team's top line and shuts

18:52 Speaker 3: them down. They're the guys that will, you know, kind

18:55 Speaker 3: of grind out the defenceman on the back end of

18:58 Speaker 3: the other team, you know, kind of make them tired.

19:02 Speaker 3: That's that's always one thing that kind of gets overlooked,

19:04 Speaker 3: is is kind of leaning on the other team's defense,

19:07 Speaker 3: especially in the playoffs. That's that's a great way to

19:10 Speaker 3: you know, win a series, steal a series. Is I mean,

19:13 Speaker 3: that's what Florida does the Boston all the time. They

19:15 Speaker 3: for check all the time and put pressure on the

19:17 Speaker 3: defense and make them tired. So right, just relentless. Yeah,

19:22 Speaker 3: And and the way I like to look at it

19:24 Speaker 3: is kind of compare it to baseball, where you've got

19:26 Speaker 3: like a five man starting pitching rotation. You don't want

19:29 Speaker 3: all pitchers that are the same. You want a little

19:32 Speaker 3: bit of difference of you know, people coming at just

19:35 Speaker 3: so if you've got the top line that's just come

19:37 Speaker 3: and coming and coming, maybe your second line is going

19:41 Speaker 3: to be, you know, your neutral zone speed guys that

19:43 Speaker 3: will you know, do the do the transition game or

19:46 Speaker 3: be a little bit more skilled then a little bit

19:48 Speaker 3: more for check. So again this is going to be

19:51 Speaker 3: like your Burson are on Marsh and Reki those types

19:55 Speaker 3: of players that you know play a little bit more

19:58 Speaker 3: defensive minded but definitely are offensive threats.

20:01 Speaker 1: And that was my question was these It sounds like

20:05 Speaker 1: then this particular line is a little bit more defensively minded.

20:10 Speaker 1: Their way takes place in multiple zones. And then I

20:16 Speaker 1: appreciate the example of someone like Marshand because it really

20:22 Speaker 1: kind of solidifies in my mind when it comes to

20:28 Speaker 1: you know, skill and ability. Top six they're all excellent players,

20:33 Speaker 1: They're all relatively on par in terms of the best

20:37 Speaker 1: at what they do. But when you want to compare

20:40 Speaker 1: someone like a David Pasternak, at least prior to this season,

20:43 Speaker 1: I would say Pasta or Alexandrovitchkin is this type of

20:49 Speaker 1: player I kind of think where they go to their

20:52 Speaker 1: place and you know, score their goal. Right, So prior

20:58 Speaker 1: to the season pasta effect only really ever, unless he

21:01 Speaker 1: got like a fantastic breakaway, he really went to like

21:04 Speaker 1: his office and he stood there and waited for the

21:08 Speaker 1: pass to snipe that goal.

21:09 Speaker 3: Right yep.

21:11 Speaker 1: Ovechkin like that's the kind of player that he is, Right,

21:13 Speaker 1: he goes to his spot and he scores his goals.

21:16 Speaker 1: Whereas if you think about someone like Bred Marshander, even

21:21 Speaker 1: I saw this a lot with more geeky this year,

21:24 Speaker 1: really knowing how to either evade people to get to

21:29 Speaker 1: a place to receive a good pass or to make

21:32 Speaker 1: that critical pass like get it in, but also figure

21:37 Speaker 1: out how to stop the opposing team before it becomes

21:42 Speaker 1: really the defenseman's problem.

21:45 Speaker 3: Yep, yep. And I would say, you know, players like

21:48 Speaker 3: a Nancy Kopetar probably is like a perfect center line

21:52 Speaker 3: second line center would be that type of player who

21:55 Speaker 3: plays that two hundred foot game, not necessarily sexy on

22:00 Speaker 3: the scoreboard, but definitely plays a game where he affects

22:05 Speaker 3: the game off the score sheet. That's kind of my

22:09 Speaker 3: hope for like a patra Is to get to that

22:12 Speaker 3: that point. I would say, you know, if this team

22:14 Speaker 3: was better. Geeky would be a perfect second line winger

22:18 Speaker 3: or center, and if Zaka could score again, it would

22:22 Speaker 3: be a good second line. So but we all know

22:26 Speaker 3: Zaka can't score, so he doesn't.

22:31 Speaker 2: Just you know, we're we're putting, we're putting, trying to

22:34 Speaker 2: put round peggs into you know, squere square. I mean

22:39 Speaker 2: this is yeah, you know, what what you're talking about

22:42 Speaker 2: is build building a team right based on what the

22:47 Speaker 2: specific players skill level is at.

22:53 Speaker 1: Where we we.

22:55 Speaker 2: Seem to have a management group that is forcing, not forcing,

23:02 Speaker 2: but they're not putting players in the right positions for

23:06 Speaker 2: success to succeed, or for the overall good of the

23:11 Speaker 2: team to be successful.

23:13 Speaker 1: And themselves and like the player themselves right. Certainly, we

23:17 Speaker 1: saw I think I think an exception in Jake Debrusk

23:22 Speaker 1: when he was put in a position that demanded more

23:26 Speaker 1: of him and he needed that apparently, right, and that

23:30 Speaker 1: worked out really really well for two years. But then

23:33 Speaker 1: you have a situation like with Charlie Coyle, who was

23:37 Speaker 1: always a very reliable third line center and they had

23:43 Speaker 1: no choice but to call upon him to serve as

23:48 Speaker 1: a center either in the first or the second line,

23:51 Speaker 1: and he had flashes of when he could do it,

23:54 Speaker 1: but he just didn't have what it took and doesn't

23:57 Speaker 1: have what it takes to consistently be in those two

24:01 Speaker 1: positions you could fill in, you know, but he couldn't

24:05 Speaker 1: maintain that that wasn't his role.

24:07 Speaker 2: And to always point when you look at you know,

24:11 Speaker 2: what is distinguishing the criteria of you know, those that

24:18 Speaker 2: are your first line, those that are your second line,

24:21 Speaker 2: and we'll get to the other lines, is that you know,

24:24 Speaker 2: in in any walk of life, you've got to put

24:28 Speaker 2: people in the roles that you know that they are

24:32 Speaker 2: capable of handling where they can garner success. And you know,

24:37 Speaker 2: in defensive players, I highly doubt that you know, if

24:41 Speaker 2: the coach comes to you and says, you know, hey,

24:44 Speaker 2: Joe Blow, you're playing up on the top line tonight,

24:47 Speaker 2: even though you're a third line player, what are you

24:49 Speaker 2: going to say? No, No, no, I'm not comfortable. I'm

24:52 Speaker 2: not comfortable doing that, or or vice versa. Right, they

24:56 Speaker 2: want to play right and they want to do what's

25:00 Speaker 2: for the team because they're team players.

25:02 Speaker 3: But yes, and I exactly I do.

25:06 Speaker 1: Before we dive into the second half of Before we

25:11 Speaker 1: dive into the second half lines. Let's just take a

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27:37 Speaker 1: All Right, so welcome back in. We're halfway through our

27:41 Speaker 1: forward line philosophy. So, Mo, we've talked about our top six.

27:48 Speaker 1: We've heard that phrase time and time again. Top six.

27:52 Speaker 4: Obviously, these are some of your best players, the most skilled,

27:56 Speaker 4: but we've already started to see with the second line

28:00 Speaker 4: that some of the responsibility is slowly shifting away from

28:07 Speaker 4: pure offensive power into more of a multi.

28:13 Speaker 3: You know, funk.

28:16 Speaker 1: Yes role. So where does that put the third line

28:21 Speaker 1: in today's game? Because I want to also hear from

28:25 Speaker 1: Maria your take on how maybe some of this has changed,

28:28 Speaker 1: because even from what you know, Bo and I are

28:31 Speaker 1: the same age. So we watched trap Era and Dead Hockey,

28:37 Speaker 1: which was a little bit had some similarities to to

28:40 Speaker 1: the big bad Ruins of your But let's talk about today.

28:45 Speaker 1: What is the third line today?

28:47 Speaker 3: Yeah, So for me, this one all depends on the

28:52 Speaker 3: coaches philosophy, and there's probably a couple of different routes

28:56 Speaker 3: that you can take. In my mind, this is basically

29:01 Speaker 3: going to be my workhorse line. So this is where

29:03 Speaker 3: a guy like Charlie Coyle is perfect. This is the

29:06 Speaker 3: line that I want to basically grind the other team

29:11 Speaker 3: down and basically just just own the game and make

29:17 Speaker 3: them have the momentum. So basically what this is is

29:21 Speaker 3: this is kind of referred to as the shutdown line. Right,

29:24 Speaker 3: So they're gonna be the guys that probably are a

29:27 Speaker 3: little bit more defensively minded than your second line, but

29:31 Speaker 3: they still have to be able to score. So if

29:35 Speaker 3: you look back at twenty eleven, a guy like Michael

29:37 Speaker 3: Ryder was kind of a perfect third line guy. He

29:41 Speaker 3: had that wicked wrist shot where he could almost score

29:43 Speaker 3: from anywhere, but he was also pretty underrated defensively. Where

29:48 Speaker 3: Maria Caroline, you guys probably remember in the playoffs when

29:51 Speaker 3: he basically like played as Tim Thomas and make that

29:54 Speaker 3: made that save against So it's yeah, so yeah, and.

30:01 Speaker 1: He actually scored, he scored.

30:03 Speaker 3: A game winning goal as at all.

30:05 Speaker 1: In that very same series to your point, So.

30:10 Speaker 3: Yeah, So also, I think you can always also use

30:13 Speaker 3: this line as as kind of like a developmental line

30:17 Speaker 3: for maybe some rookies. So if you're going to look

30:19 Speaker 3: at a guy like like Lycel, maybe this is a

30:22 Speaker 3: better line because not really fourth line, because they're really

30:26 Speaker 3: going to get what eight ten minutes a game. These

30:28 Speaker 3: guys are probably gonna get twelve, thirteen to fourteen minutes

30:31 Speaker 3: a game, So a little bit less responsibility. Probably not

30:34 Speaker 3: going to play against the top line, maybe the second,

30:37 Speaker 3: the third, the fourth line, but definitely a line where

30:40 Speaker 3: people can develop. But I think it's it's it's going

30:46 Speaker 3: to depend on on what the coach's philosophy is and

30:49 Speaker 3: how good the team wants to be, right, I mean,

30:52 Speaker 3: you look at Florida. You got Marshane on the third line.

30:54 Speaker 3: I mean, Marshane's not a third line winger, but that's

30:57 Speaker 3: where he plays because you know what awesome.

31:00 Speaker 2: Yeah, And Paul Maurice's philosophy to this conversation is his

31:06 Speaker 2: philosophy with regard to that line marshand and forget who

31:10 Speaker 2: else is on the line with him. But if they

31:13 Speaker 2: can score one goal per series, and these are Paul

31:17 Speaker 2: Maurice's words, they can score one goal per series, then

31:22 Speaker 2: they're doing their job. Then they're doing their job in

31:25 Speaker 2: addition to making life miserable because right when you're on

31:29 Speaker 2: the road, you don't get the last change, and so

31:34 Speaker 2: you need a third line grouping like that from a

31:37 Speaker 2: coaches standpoint, where you don't get that opportunity to, you know,

31:41 Speaker 2: get your top guys against the other team's top guys, right,

31:46 Speaker 2: So you've got to have that faith in that grinder,

31:52 Speaker 2: that grinder line, or that defensive you know, guys that

31:55 Speaker 2: are defensively responsible, that have a good chance of winning

31:59 Speaker 2: a face off, particularly if the face off is in

32:01 Speaker 2: your own end.

32:03 Speaker 3: Yep, yep. And that's where guys like Coil were great.

32:06 Speaker 3: In twenty eleven, you had Kelly who was a great

32:09 Speaker 3: third line center who won the face offs, did did

32:12 Speaker 3: the grinding, was a penalty kill specialist. I mean, he

32:15 Speaker 3: was what you wanted. So it's it, and it all

32:18 Speaker 3: depends where your team's at. You know, use them for

32:21 Speaker 3: a developmental line. You could use Life Cell and a

32:24 Speaker 3: couple other guys on that line, But for me, it's

32:27 Speaker 3: got to be probably one of your better skating lines

32:31 Speaker 3: as well. People that can can keep up and I mean, like.

32:38 Speaker 1: The other team's face right, right, right. How how much

32:47 Speaker 1: does this line in particular maybe get not necessarily changed

32:53 Speaker 1: up in terms of personnel, but changed in how they're

32:57 Speaker 1: used and how often they're used based on the hoosing

33:00 Speaker 1: team and yeah, potential that happened, there is this one

33:04 Speaker 1: that could the amount of time fluctuate to some degree

33:11 Speaker 1: or is it? Is it less about any of that

33:15 Speaker 1: and it's just that's just your particular job and you

33:17 Speaker 1: go out when we need you for that particular purpose. Yeah.

33:21 Speaker 3: No, it's a good question, and it probably depends on

33:24 Speaker 3: probably a bunch of different factors. But the way I

33:28 Speaker 3: see it is this line's probably also going to have

33:31 Speaker 3: more of your like penalty kill specialists. So if if

33:35 Speaker 3: your game is getting more fee and you yeah, so

33:38 Speaker 3: these are probably you know, in a lesson perfect world,

33:41 Speaker 3: you don't have burst Round or Marsh and who's gonna

33:43 Speaker 3: kill penalties? So you've got these guys right that are

33:45 Speaker 3: your Chris Kelly's or you know whoever else we've got

33:50 Speaker 3: that I can't think of. But uh, you know, maybe

33:52 Speaker 3: in a perfect world, you know, Johnny Beecher becomes a

33:55 Speaker 3: third line guy if he can developed you know, he

33:58 Speaker 3: plays wins the face, he could do penalty kill. You know,

34:03 Speaker 3: maybe there your second power play unit. Depending wasn't Castilla

34:08 Speaker 3: killing some penalties too before he had all those? And

34:11 Speaker 3: think so yeah, and I mean we'll get into the

34:16 Speaker 3: fourth line. But I think this line, your third and

34:18 Speaker 3: fourth lines, like your top two lines. You want them

34:23 Speaker 3: to kind of play off of each other. And again

34:25 Speaker 3: it's it's going to determine what style of play that

34:29 Speaker 3: line ultimately plays. Right, You've got dump and Chase, you've

34:32 Speaker 3: got cycle, you've got the load of high game, you've

34:34 Speaker 3: got you know, the neutral zone transition. So it really

34:38 Speaker 3: depends who the players are and what that coach's philosophy is.

34:44 Speaker 3: I mean, if if you go back to Monty, his

34:45 Speaker 3: whole thing was getting the defense activated, and that's why

34:48 Speaker 3: they were so good that first year because no one

34:50 Speaker 3: saw it coming and no one knew how to defend it.

34:52 Speaker 3: Then everybody knew what they were going to do and

34:55 Speaker 3: they could stop it. And the Bruins the longer.

35:03 Speaker 1: Minor details, right right.

35:06 Speaker 3: So I think again it's like the starting pitching kind

35:11 Speaker 3: of comparison is is you don't always want all four

35:15 Speaker 3: lines to play the same, and you don't want your

35:17 Speaker 3: bottom six to always play the same because then the

35:20 Speaker 3: other team kind adjusts and they know what's coming and

35:22 Speaker 3: they know how to beat the fore check or or

35:25 Speaker 3: what they're playing. So if you know this line still

35:29 Speaker 3: definitely has to score, So you just can't put a

35:31 Speaker 3: whole bunch of rookies or a whole bunch of grinders

35:33 Speaker 3: out there, which is why a guy like Writer and

35:36 Speaker 3: Kelly kind of worked because they could do both. So

35:41 Speaker 3: if you want, we can get into the fourth line,

35:43 Speaker 3: because it kind of segues into it, right And and

35:45 Speaker 3: I mean for me and Marie, I don't know if

35:48 Speaker 3: you know what what you think is. You've kind of

35:50 Speaker 3: seen like the big bad Bruins, but this is your energy,

35:53 Speaker 3: your physicality line. This is the line that basically goes

35:57 Speaker 3: out there and kicks the other team's ass, right, Yeah, I've.

36:01 Speaker 2: Never seen in all my years of watching hockey, you know.

36:06 Speaker 2: And and the game obviously has changed and evolved. Right

36:09 Speaker 2: there there there weren't you know, at a linux and

36:12 Speaker 2: specialists and you know, you had you guys on the bench.

36:15 Speaker 2: You had you know, one, two, three, four lines, and

36:18 Speaker 2: that's how your coaches for the most part, rolled them out.

36:22 Speaker 2: And you know, to some degree, I don't want to

36:24 Speaker 2: say the game was it wasn't as strategic, and that's

36:29 Speaker 2: no disrespect to what was happening back in those days.

36:35 Speaker 1: But man, that is a low line.

36:41 Speaker 2: I had ever seen anything like that, even in the

36:45 Speaker 2: days of the Big Bad Bruins, because not only not

36:50 Speaker 2: only did those guys kick ass, which the Big Bad

36:53 Speaker 2: Bruins did, but they could also, when needed, be counted

36:59 Speaker 2: on to score a goal. Not only did they grind

37:03 Speaker 2: down the opposing team, and you know, their their role was.

37:09 Speaker 1: Don't get scored on.

37:10 Speaker 2: Really, I mean short of that, don't get Yeah. Yeah,

37:15 Speaker 2: they they were. They were brutal to play against, which

37:20 Speaker 2: was a thing of beauty to watch back then.

37:24 Speaker 3: They were all very well. I guess Thornton wasn't fast,

37:27 Speaker 3: but I mean Pie and Campbell were fast. They were fearless.

37:31 Speaker 3: I mean, didn't Campbell break a leg and stay out

37:34 Speaker 3: there yeah, blocking shots?

37:35 Speaker 1: Yes he did.

37:37 Speaker 2: He did alty kill, Yeah, penalty kill on one leg.

37:42 Speaker 2: And I was in the building for that game, and

37:45 Speaker 2: the entire building was on their feet because we all

37:49 Speaker 2: knew something awful had happened, yeah to him, but the

37:54 Speaker 2: fact that he stayed out there on one freaking leg

37:58 Speaker 2: basically and kept blocking shots.

38:01 Speaker 3: So it's just perfect, you know that.

38:06 Speaker 2: And again, you know, you can't rewind the clock, right,

38:10 Speaker 2: but when you're looking at somewhat of a blueprint and

38:15 Speaker 2: a philosophical approach to how you want to build you know,

38:21 Speaker 2: a sequence or a series of lines. To me, that

38:25 Speaker 2: fourth line, that is a blueprint that I think a

38:29 Speaker 2: lot of other teams have picked up on and tried

38:35 Speaker 2: to replicate and duplicate and and develop and mirror.

38:40 Speaker 3: Yeah, I'd agree, And didn't Marshan start as a fourth

38:43 Speaker 3: line winger?

38:44 Speaker 1: He did? Yeah, I mean a lot of them will

38:47 Speaker 1: as well. Right, They're gonna as a way to develop them,

38:50 Speaker 1: as a way to like see what what do they

38:53 Speaker 1: see to that?

38:54 Speaker 3: Right?

38:55 Speaker 2: Because ultimate honestly, you know, and again no disrespect, but

39:00 Speaker 2: your fourth line is likely not going to be seeing

39:04 Speaker 2: the same amount of ice time as your first and

39:06 Speaker 2: second lines in theory, right, right, so you know it

39:10 Speaker 2: will give you a glimpse in a window. Is you know,

39:13 Speaker 2: can we trust these guys in the situation that we're

39:16 Speaker 2: putting them in as a fourth line? Can we trust them?

39:21 Speaker 2: Can we trust this player to make the right decision

39:26 Speaker 2: with that with the puck?

39:28 Speaker 1: Yeah? And so actually, one thing that you guys have

39:30 Speaker 1: brought up a few times, and I just want to

39:32 Speaker 1: make sure that we touch on for again some of

39:36 Speaker 1: our newer listeners or you know, newer fans to hockey

39:40 Speaker 1: because this year has seen such an explosion in hockey fandom.

39:45 Speaker 1: You know, when we're talking about these different lines, first

39:49 Speaker 1: of all, the minutes that get played, right, So when

39:52 Speaker 1: when you have your top lines, they're typically going to

39:56 Speaker 1: be seeing what twenty twenty three minutes, it's maybe twenty

40:01 Speaker 1: five if I mean, I.

40:02 Speaker 2: Think you want to keep them, you know, under the

40:06 Speaker 2: ideally because if not, you're going to wear them out

40:09 Speaker 2: right right right, they're out there for the regular shift,

40:12 Speaker 2: they're out on penalty, on power play, right, you know,

40:17 Speaker 2: on average, And again I'm just guessing I don't have.

40:20 Speaker 1: Many three minutes, but twenty minutes twenty minutes I think

40:24 Speaker 1: is yeah. And then so for your second line, it

40:28 Speaker 1: might then end up being probably closer to what like

40:32 Speaker 1: eighteen minutes eighteen is ish, yeah, and then you you

40:36 Speaker 1: then start to see a little bit of a drop

40:37 Speaker 1: off because I think I would expect a third liner

40:39 Speaker 1: to be getting somewhere maybe around fourteen ish minutes. And then,

40:44 Speaker 1: like you said, a fourth line is actually going to

40:46 Speaker 1: be seeing the least amount of ice time, like significantly

40:50 Speaker 1: less ice time, like less.

40:52 Speaker 3: Than single digits.

40:53 Speaker 2: Yeah, and some some nights it's single maybe eleven, but

40:58 Speaker 2: a light minutes some nights.

40:59 Speaker 1: It's single digits, right. If right, they might not need them, right.

41:04 Speaker 1: It all kind of depends on what the need is.

41:06 Speaker 1: And so the other thing, the other question that I

41:10 Speaker 1: wanted to put out there is when coaches are looking

41:17 Speaker 1: to send out certain lines, right, because like to your point, Maria,

41:20 Speaker 1: it's not that way anymore. Where it was just like okay,

41:23 Speaker 1: one two three four one two three four, right, Like,

41:26 Speaker 1: I mean, they don't do it that way anymore. There's

41:29 Speaker 1: a lot more strategy involved now, So you know who

41:36 Speaker 1: presumably you're sending out your top two lines based on

41:42 Speaker 1: maybe who's also out there at the same time or

41:45 Speaker 1: who's coming up. So how do coaches know when to

41:50 Speaker 1: send different lines out on the ice? Like who is

41:55 Speaker 1: the first line being paired up against? Are they out

41:58 Speaker 1: there at the same time as the other two team's

42:00 Speaker 1: best line, or is the other team sending out, you know,

42:05 Speaker 1: their third line. Is there any kind of predictable pattern

42:12 Speaker 1: or rule of thumb when it comes to that, or

42:17 Speaker 1: at least in your philosophy in the moverse what would

42:21 Speaker 1: be your philosophy for how you send them?

42:23 Speaker 2: I mean, I don't answer from it but there maybe

42:26 Speaker 2: instances right when you start the game and you're okay,

42:30 Speaker 2: first line against first line, right, But we have seen

42:33 Speaker 2: those instances where you know, for whatever reasons, you know,

42:37 Speaker 2: because say the second or third line had a particularly

42:41 Speaker 2: good game the night before, coaching staff or coaches rewarding

42:45 Speaker 2: them or right, so there's.

42:48 Speaker 1: Debut the home or whatever the case may be.

42:52 Speaker 2: Right, and you know, you know, particularly on home ice,

42:55 Speaker 2: because you know, as the home coach, you can pull

42:57 Speaker 2: them off the ice quick if things aren't going and

43:00 Speaker 2: then right you've got your third line out there against

43:03 Speaker 2: their first line. But if things aren't going well, you

43:06 Speaker 2: pull them off the ice and you throw your first

43:08 Speaker 2: line back out there. So you know, I don't know

43:11 Speaker 2: that there's necessarily any more kind of a rhyme or

43:15 Speaker 2: reason that coaches use other than they want to try

43:17 Speaker 2: to get the best matchups, right.

43:20 Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean, probably the biggest rule of thumb is

43:23 Speaker 3: like after an icing and it's the other team's fourth line,

43:26 Speaker 3: you put your top line out there. I mean, that's

43:29 Speaker 3: that seems to always be the case. I think when

43:33 Speaker 3: the Bruins won the Cup, they always started the fourth

43:35 Speaker 3: line to get that energy, to get that building going.

43:40 Speaker 3: So if you've got a line that you can know they're.

43:44 Speaker 2: Going to throw a big hit, right, Yeah, yeah, they

43:46 Speaker 2: would throw a big hit. And and you would even

43:50 Speaker 2: at away games too, you know, club clud hit so

43:54 Speaker 2: much newity doing in that line that you know he

43:58 Speaker 2: was not opposed, you know, to giving them a start

44:02 Speaker 2: here or there to just send a message, this is

44:06 Speaker 2: going to be a long night for you.

44:08 Speaker 3: Yep. And I think sometimes it will also be maybe

44:11 Speaker 3: the coach does players and not so much line matchups,

44:14 Speaker 3: because I think you'll always see Carolina and Brenda. Moore

44:16 Speaker 3: would always put Stall out there when there was a

44:18 Speaker 3: defensive zone face off because he'd pretty much always win it.

44:22 Speaker 3: Or you've got bergeron when he was playing, he'd always

44:25 Speaker 3: take the defensive zone draws. It looked like the Bruins

44:28 Speaker 3: were putting Beacher out there quite a bit to win

44:30 Speaker 3: a draw. So it's going to depend a lot on

44:34 Speaker 3: the situations. And then especially in the playoffs, you'll kind

44:39 Speaker 3: of see who is matching up well against who and

44:43 Speaker 3: maybe who's not. And that's always the biggest thing is

44:45 Speaker 3: when you're away the away team you got to change first,

44:48 Speaker 3: so the other coach can basically, you know, kind of

44:51 Speaker 3: match up against you, which is why that whole mice

44:53 Speaker 3: is just critical. It is, but i mean probably when

44:58 Speaker 3: Coyle was really good, when it was like, what was it,

45:01 Speaker 3: the coil haul line, they were always going against the

45:04 Speaker 3: other team's third line. So if you've got an upper

45:08 Speaker 3: like a like a higher level third line, put that

45:10 Speaker 3: against the other team's third line, you've created a great mismatch,

45:13 Speaker 3: and yeah, you're probably not giving up any goals or opportunities.

45:17 Speaker 3: I mean that's when Coyle, Frederick and Smith, when that

45:20 Speaker 3: line first started, they were unstoppable. So it's it's all

45:24 Speaker 3: gonna depend on, you know, matchups, who you're playing. I

45:27 Speaker 3: think the biggest thing to think about is just where

45:31 Speaker 3: where the game is, at, what period, what situation, And

45:34 Speaker 3: then usually you can kind of dictate and assume, all right,

45:37 Speaker 3: the top line's coming out, just just because even if

45:40 Speaker 3: they were just out there or you know, the fourth line.

45:43 Speaker 3: You know, sometimes you'll see the fourth line go down

45:45 Speaker 3: and force the goalie to freeze the pucks so they

45:47 Speaker 3: can get off the ice on the top line gets

45:49 Speaker 3: an offensive zone face off. So it's it's it's little

45:52 Speaker 3: things like that that you know, is kind of fun

45:55 Speaker 3: to watch. The game. Yeah, kind of like those little

45:58 Speaker 3: instances and that really sets like the good from the

46:00 Speaker 3: the the okay teams apart.

46:04 Speaker 1: So so I think we know for the most part

46:10 Speaker 1: the vacancies that we have everything. Yeah, but my question is, actually,

46:21 Speaker 1: now we're only talking forwards because I know you have

46:23 Speaker 1: opinions about the defenseman and we will talk about defenseman

46:28 Speaker 1: in another episode.

46:30 Speaker 3: Okay, what forwards.

46:33 Speaker 1: That we have left are actually not in the right

46:39 Speaker 1: spot that maybe they should be somewhere else based on

46:44 Speaker 1: what put your put put your coaching hat on, mo

46:48 Speaker 1: and tell me, tell us, tell us who would be.

46:56 Speaker 2: On the first line with David, because we know David

47:01 Speaker 2: is your number one Okay, yeah, first and foremost number one?

47:05 Speaker 1: Who who or who should get demoted?

47:10 Speaker 3: Yeah? Well all right, let's let's think about this. So

47:12 Speaker 3: you've got got Pasta for sure. Yeah, I would think

47:16 Speaker 3: the chances of Geeky coming back are probably pretty good.

47:22 Speaker 3: So let's just just assume you've got Geeky and Pasta

47:25 Speaker 3: as your two thirds of your top line. So I

47:30 Speaker 3: think Geeky can play center. But he was playing on

47:34 Speaker 3: the on the left side for the most part, right, Yeah,

47:37 Speaker 3: which seemed to suit him because it was kind of

47:39 Speaker 3: his off side, so we could do those one timers

47:41 Speaker 3: pretty easily. I did like the lind home at center option.

47:46 Speaker 3: I think that forces Lindholme not to have as much

47:50 Speaker 3: pressure on him to produce points. He can kind of

47:55 Speaker 3: I don't want to compare him to but he can

47:58 Speaker 3: take like the Bergeron esque route where you know, we'll

48:02 Speaker 3: take sixty seventy points from him. But as long as

48:05 Speaker 3: he can win face offs, be the catalyst that starts

48:08 Speaker 3: the offensive zone kind of pressure and momentum by winning

48:12 Speaker 3: the draw. But also play that two hundred foot game.

48:16 Speaker 3: You just let Kiki and Pasta cook and who cares

48:20 Speaker 3: outside of that. If you want to get really really

48:23 Speaker 3: really funky and weird, you put geeky and Pasta and

48:29 Speaker 3: you pair him with Lora.

48:31 Speaker 1: I'm just gonna told you we're not talking about defenceman.

48:34 Speaker 3: No, but Glorai, you're not tard.

48:36 Speaker 1: About Yeah, in the next episode mode.

48:42 Speaker 3: But he's a forward, so he counts. But I think

48:47 Speaker 3: if you're good, the guy that has to get off

48:50 Speaker 3: the top line is Zaka. It's it's over. That experiment

48:53 Speaker 3: is done. His defensive game doesn't make up for the

48:59 Speaker 3: fact that he can't score even when the net is

49:02 Speaker 3: wide open. He just misses the net. So I think

49:07 Speaker 3: your top line has to be at least right now,

49:09 Speaker 3: it's probably geeky lind Home in pasta. I think unless

49:14 Speaker 3: they sign like a Tavares or another, or or if

49:18 Speaker 3: they want Geeky to be center and they signed a

49:20 Speaker 3: big time left winger, I mean, it's got to be

49:23 Speaker 3: those three going into training camp, and they've got to

49:25 Speaker 3: play together at training camp.

49:27 Speaker 2: Well told us, Don told us that the focus was

49:32 Speaker 2: going to be at the wing position. So I don't

49:36 Speaker 2: think they're going to be doing anything of significance at

49:42 Speaker 2: that center position, which is mind boggling to me. Still

49:46 Speaker 2: haven't filled these gaping holes, But what the hell do

49:48 Speaker 2: I know?

49:49 Speaker 1: Anyways, So I get it.

49:52 Speaker 3: I mean I'd rather the Bruins focus on winger than center.

49:56 Speaker 3: I think down the middle they could get away with it.

49:58 Speaker 3: As long as they actually got like another couple top

50:03 Speaker 3: scoring wingers, I think they'd be okay.

50:07 Speaker 1: I mean Rakka should stay on that second line then,

50:13 Speaker 1: like you said, he's defensively, he's good, he's fine, he's

50:17 Speaker 1: just the offensive or does he make better align with

50:23 Speaker 1: your philosophy for the third line.

50:26 Speaker 3: I think he better aligns on my philosophy of trading him.

50:30 Speaker 3: So I mean, so, uh.

50:35 Speaker 1: Well, I guess that's enoughtion. I guess so basically we're

50:40 Speaker 1: stuck with what we have. It's not like the It's again,

50:44 Speaker 1: it's not like it was so cut and dry with

50:48 Speaker 1: Charlie Coyle obviously being mismatched in his roles in the

50:53 Speaker 1: expectations of him or Trent Frederick where they kept trying

50:56 Speaker 1: to make him be some more of a mid center

51:01 Speaker 1: and when you've said he really belongs on the fourth line,

51:07 Speaker 1: So who knows, maybe we'll get some fresh people in

51:11 Speaker 1: that they can then miss.

51:16 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think the Bruins have the makings of a

51:20 Speaker 3: good fourth line, and I would say a very good

51:24 Speaker 3: top line. Right, So you've got geeky lind Holm pasta

51:28 Speaker 3: and on your fourth line if you know, you've got

51:31 Speaker 3: Castelic already down there. So he's going to be a

51:36 Speaker 3: solid fourth line guy. He'll he'll hit, he'll probably feel

51:39 Speaker 3: that Gregory Campbell type role. You've got Beecher who is

51:44 Speaker 3: an RFA. But I would be very surprised if they

51:46 Speaker 3: don't bring him back. I mean, he's twenty four.

51:49 Speaker 1: He's the wild card. About whether or not they'll bring him.

51:52 Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't really care about cup Key.

51:55 Speaker 1: I mean I don't either.

51:56 Speaker 3: I will let him go. Yeah, I think Lauco would

52:01 Speaker 3: be another really good but if you're trying to save

52:05 Speaker 3: cap space, I think a guy like Riley Duran is

52:08 Speaker 3: a really good fourth line option.

52:11 Speaker 1: I mean, we don't forget Loco is League minimum pay

52:15 Speaker 1: as well, and he has a lot of speed, so

52:17 Speaker 1: he does have that energy.

52:19 Speaker 3: Right, He's an RFA, so he'll get a pay bump.

52:21 Speaker 3: I think he's making about seven eighty eight now, it'll

52:24 Speaker 3: probably make what Castelics make and it's like one and

52:27 Speaker 3: a half probably. I mean my favorite fourth line was Steen,

52:32 Speaker 3: so I kind of want like another Steam type, So

52:34 Speaker 3: I could see Duran being that guy because speed, for checking,

52:39 Speaker 3: just a lot of that stuff that shows up off

52:42 Speaker 3: the scoreesheet. So when it comes to your second and

52:45 Speaker 3: third line, I don't really know what the hell is

52:49 Speaker 3: gonna happen. We have nothing that you got middle stats,

52:53 Speaker 3: middle stats Okay, I don't know where his lots, but

52:57 Speaker 3: I think he could be a third line guy pretty well. Uh,

53:00 Speaker 3: you've probably got Licele, who I think could be a

53:05 Speaker 3: decent man. You wanted to be a second line guy

53:09 Speaker 3: so bad. But he's got to play with a guy

53:11 Speaker 3: that also can kind of match his speed and creativity.

53:14 Speaker 3: So I don't know if a guy like Patra, if

53:17 Speaker 3: if they think he's NHL ready, if you put him

53:22 Speaker 3: at the second line role, but then you've got Patra

53:25 Speaker 3: and Lycel, who I don't really want them going up

53:28 Speaker 3: against a lot like Austin Matthews and those guys will

53:31 Speaker 3: just I wouldn't feel comfortable.

53:33 Speaker 1: Yeah, comfortable with that.

53:36 Speaker 2: And they've got to address this secondary scoring right And

53:42 Speaker 2: to me, it was simple, overly simplistic. But that comes

53:46 Speaker 2: from you second line, you know, So you've got to

53:51 Speaker 2: go out and get some proven If you're going to

53:54 Speaker 2: focus on wingers, then you've got to go out and

54:00 Speaker 2: bite the bullet and get yourself a proven NHL commodity

54:06 Speaker 2: who's going to give you twenty five thirty.

54:10 Speaker 1: Goals with your eyes closed.

54:12 Speaker 2: I mean, I just don't know how you're going to

54:17 Speaker 2: sustain any success if you don't address your secondary scoring

54:23 Speaker 2: needs or lack of it.

54:24 Speaker 1: We need another Morgan geeky. We need to copy and

54:27 Speaker 1: paste him. Winger gave us their thirty goal most like

54:31 Speaker 1: we just need another guy like.

54:32 Speaker 3: Him, but I wish.

54:36 Speaker 1: So we're gonna wrap this up, but we want to

54:41 Speaker 1: thank you Mo for coming on the show to share

54:44 Speaker 1: your philosophy of forward lines. If you want to read

54:47 Speaker 1: more in depth and see some more specific examples again,

54:52 Speaker 1: check out our substack. Re Moe has already published that

54:56 Speaker 1: article and make sure you like an subscribe, and he

55:01 Speaker 1: will be back in our next episode to talk about defense.

55:05 Speaker 1: So day as always go Bes Goes