The Philosophy of Forward Lines | Ep. 87

0:52 Speaker 1: Welcome in everyone to another episode of Bruins Tape to Tape. I am your host this evening, Caroline. It is is April thirtieth. If you're listening to this, Yes, the Bruins are still not in the playoffs, but we are still getting together and tracking hockey. And what better way to kick off our summer season, so to speak, the first episode without any active Bruin news, then having a special guest. So, but first and foremost, I want to welcome in my fabulous co host, Maria. How's it go on? Maria?

1:29 Speaker 2: Oh, just scran, just scran. I'm actually you know, no, I mean, I mean that sincerely. It's kind of it's kind of refreshing to sit back and watch a little bit of playoff, really good playoff hockey. Even though we don't have a dog in the fight, there's been some pretty epic battles thus far.

1:47 Speaker 1: It is. I am very highly entertained. It's been an excellent first round. But as I mentioned, for those of you who are not watching on YouTube, we've brought in Professor Mo, friend of the pod, to come on and educate us a little bit. So, if you have been following our substack account, We've got a special little corner dedicated to Mo and his wisdom around all things hockey. So what better way to get ready for next season than to enlighten us, ourselves and our fans what a good team is actually supposed to look like.

2:30 Speaker 1: So welcome in Mo. How is it going?

2:32 Speaker 3: Thank you, guys, it's great. I appreciate you guys having me on again.

2:35 Speaker 2: We always love having you when your articles have been really really good, really thought provoking and entertaining.

2:44 Speaker 3: Good. Yeah, glad that's been working out. They've been fun to write, for sure.

2:47 Speaker 1: Yeah, highly enlightening. I mean, certainly, I think, you know, among the three of us, we've been fans of the game for a really long time. But at least for myself, there have been elements that I have learned a lot about, uh that I didn't know beforehand. You know, we talk a lot on this podcast about at least I certain you talk about it all the time that uh, you know, the Boston Bruins. It's it's a team, but it's also like a workplace, right and everybody has a job, and uh, it could be you have to be the goal scorer, you have to be the playmaker, you have to be the Uncle Nick kind of player.

3:23 Speaker 1: But besides the personalities that you need to have on a team to be successful, there are also actual jobs that have to get taken care of during a game. And Moe's first article is already out on substack, so you should definitely go check it out. It's a tape to tape MK at substack dot com. You can read that it's the forwards Philosophy and he's going to be uh putting out some more interesting content around this later this summer, so make sure you sub drives you get that into your inbox. You can get even more detailed.

4:04 Speaker 1: But before we dive in Maria, what has been happening around the rink? Has there been any big news that we might find interesting?

4:13 Speaker 2: Hot off the presses just before we started recording, is that Aaron eck Blad has been suspended two games by the Department of Players Safety. And in case folks haven't been paying attention to the Lightning Panthers series, the Florida Panthers are playing like their typical rat rats that they are they are right, and so Blad went after Hagel because Hegel knocked one of their guys out, which I again I don't have an issue with that, right if you do it cleanly. Now, the first hit that at Blad laid on Hagel should have been enough, but then Hagel Eckblad doubles down and basically delivers like an elbow to Hegel's chin.

5:11 Speaker 2: Hagel left the game, didn't come back. John Cooper lost his ever love in mind as well. He should have because they didn't even call a damn penalty on the play.

5:25 Speaker 1: It was.

5:26 Speaker 2: It was so egregious, so egregious, So you know what, it's it's about time, you know. And I know I had said that I had adopted them as my playoff team, but I even I last night had reached the end of my rope with some of the shit shenanigans that they're pulling, and then the tip for tap between Paul Maurice and John Cooper.

5:53 Speaker 1: We only hit guys in of shit. Okay, I'm entertaining. I have to say, he was starting to feel like inception. How many times are we going back and forth here? Okay? How many times are we going to play this pick a ball game?

6:11 Speaker 2: But anyways, that that was the big news that hit right before we started recording the other two pieces of news, as we all expected, is that coaches are starting to be relieved of their duties or moving on however they want to phrase it. But Mike Sullivan has parted ways with the Pittsburgh Penguins, and Rick Tackett has also parted ways with the Vancouver Canucks. So I've started hearing that the Rangers might be interested in Mike Sullivan, which is fine by me because I have a philosophical issue with having any players coaches that are related to each other.

6:58 Speaker 2: And for those of you who don't know, Mike Sullivan is Charlie McAvoy's father in law.

7:04 Speaker 1: No thank you, yeah, no, thank you.

7:07 Speaker 3: Do we even want to recycle coaches again?

7:09 Speaker 4: Though?

7:10 Speaker 2: No, we talked about that on our discord. I'm over it, mo, aren't you? I mean yeah, It just like the message will be fresh and new right, likely for a period of time perhaps, and then we might find ourselves in the same boat again where we're getting rid.

7:28 Speaker 1: Of a coach. Two three, I don't know.

7:30 Speaker 2: I don't even know if they last that long anymore in the Bruins organization.

7:34 Speaker 1: What's the shelf life?

7:36 Speaker 2: Should I call Charlie and ask him what the shelf life coaches moving forward.

7:42 Speaker 3: Well, four coaches in fifteen years is about five years a coach ish right, So.

7:49 Speaker 2: Well, according to Charlie though, you can't count bru'ce cassidy apparently not.

7:54 Speaker 3: No, that doesn't have I.

7:56 Speaker 1: Don't know what that was then five years Christ, what do we do? I don't even know anymore.

8:04 Speaker 2: And for those of you who aren't watching playoff hockey, you gotta watch playoff hockey because I tell you those teams in the West, whoever comes out of the Western Conference going into the next round, they're gonna have scars all over them because those teams are doing some serious battle against each other. And earlier in the week, like every series was tied two to two, yep, yep.

8:32 Speaker 1: So that means ultimately in the West, nobody is going to get through past the first round without six games, without six games, which is a lot and quite frankly, a lot of these matchups have been so balanced that I wouldn't be surprised if we see more two or more game sevens, which you really I mean, this is completely an uneducated guest, but from my experience of watching, like, yeah, game sevens aren't unusual, but they're not common. Like, it's not you don't have multiple game sevens in at this level.

9:12 Speaker 1: You have a lot of great games, you have a lot of overtime.

9:14 Speaker 3: But you know this is every series in the West could go seven.

9:20 Speaker 1: They honestly could. You know, they honestly could. Meanwhile, on the East Coast, everyone's going into overtime, So I don't know what that means. I don't need everyone's playing. Probably at the end, everyone will have played the same number of minutes. It's just whether or not it was in regulation or not quite frankly.

9:38 Speaker 2: Because well, the speculation I've heard from the so called expert is that whoever comes out of the Dallas Colorado series should be the ones in the Western Conference finals and going to the Stanley Cup.

9:53 Speaker 1: So we'll see.

9:54 Speaker 2: I mean, how much they'll have left by the time they get done with each other.

9:58 Speaker 1: But who's still physically standing.

10:01 Speaker 3: That's the thing.

10:01 Speaker 1: You never know, right. They could be an excellent team, they could be the best team. But if McKinnon goes down, if Sagan is done, if Otter is done, then it's.

10:14 Speaker 3: We saw that were Boston when Pasta got hurt the first shift against Florida.

10:18 Speaker 2: Yeah, sorry, no, are you here?

10:23 Speaker 1: To help us or hurt us.

10:26 Speaker 3: Definitely hurt. I'm going to make you guys feel a lot worse.

10:29 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I think, I think.

10:31 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, give given some of our subject matter here, we're going to find out how really bad the Brumins lines were here.

10:40 Speaker 3: But we got rid of Freddy, So I'm happy.

10:43 Speaker 1: Yes, that was your mission.

10:45 Speaker 2: But yeah, when I was right there, I was right there routing on, rooting on with you because uh yeah he I fell out of like with him in a relative quick hurry.

10:58 Speaker 3: Yeah.

10:59 Speaker 1: Yeah. So let's talk then about the philosophy of forward lines before we kind of dive into exactly what you believe every single line construction should be, what their jobs are. Where did you kind of come up with this philosophy and these ideas.

11:24 Speaker 3: So a lot of this philosophy just comes from watching hockey for the last thirty thirty five years. And also, I hate to say it, but playing video games is also kind of helped because video games always said your top two lines are your scoring lines and your bottom two lines are your checking lines. And so I've just kind of always had that philosophy just kind of ingrained in me growing up. It always seemed, you know, like the Joe Thornton, that jumbo line was always the top line, the scoring line.

11:57 Speaker 3: They didn't really play much defense. And then you got to you know, the twenty eleven Stanley Cup, and you had basically the best, most perfect fourth line ever. So it's just everybody, you know, like you said, Caroline, everybody has a job to play. Everybody slots in in a perfect world on a perfect team, and it's just one of those things where this this basic principle of like line construction and team construction just always comes back to the basics of these are what your guys should do. This is who should do, what your guys should play, the penalty killer or the power play or whoever it is.

12:36 Speaker 3: But if you can formulate four really good four lines, they'll stack up against anybody else and in the playoffs, that's how you get mismatches and that's how you win.

12:47 Speaker 1: So yeah, awesome. So let's talk about your first line. So we're we're going to start out initially talking more more again philosophically, a little bit theoretically, but we definitely want to then hear who in the past what ruins teams. You talk about the twenty eleven team being so well constructed. Give us some examples too, as you walk us through what this perfect line looks like.

13:22 Speaker 3: In the moverse the mo NHL twenty five. So no, it's so your top line, in my opinion, is obviously going to be at least your best players. It needs at least a sniper, And in my mind, a sniper is someone like Pasternak. He's someone that his job is to score goals. His job isn't to play defense. It's not really to play neutral zone or penalty kill. He's there to get you fifty goals a year and that's all he does. I know Pasta's knock is you know, he doesn't play defense and this stuff. But I was just thinking.

14:03 Speaker 1: That he's been.

14:06 Speaker 2: And again he gets shipped on in Boston sports talk radio for that, which is you know again. I try not to pay it any attention, but it infuriates me nonetheless, because it's more it's just fodder.

14:21 Speaker 1: To rile up sharply.

14:23 Speaker 2: So you were the same buffoons who have been saying for years the Bruins need a sniper. They have one, and then you crap all over him because you expect him to be something that right, it's it's not a regular part of his game.

14:41 Speaker 1: If if he if he grows into that aspect.

14:44 Speaker 2: Of his game, good for him, Good for him, But we want him to put the friggin puck in the.

14:50 Speaker 3: Net, right, Yeah, So you definitely want those guys, and then it's going to have to be players that compliment that person's playing ability. So typically it's it's going to be your guys that will get in the zone, get on pucks for check hard, but force turnovers and capitalize on those turnovers. So again, if you're looking at you know, the twenty eleven Bruins team, I mean your top line when they were healthy, you had Luch, Crecy and and Horton. Right, those are three guys. So you've got Luch, who's going to get in there?

15:29 Speaker 2: And just what was the truck driver that was saying over for those guys?

15:34 Speaker 3: Seriously? Yeah, Crecci, who's probably your second man in getting the park audishing it to Horton or whoever. I mean, Poverly was on that top line in the playoffs and we all know Rich Peverley was kind of crappy, but he played right. So if you have a good college player, oh, like Brown's a good HL player. Sorry, but you need those guys and so if you can, and again, if you look at like the Joe Thornton, Mike Canneuble, Glenn Murray line, none of them were great, but they played well together and they complimented each other so perfectly that no one wanted to play them.

16:13 Speaker 3: What were they, Maria, like the eight hundred pound gorilla liner stopped it? If I remember it was, it was awesome like Murray had. Yeah, Thornton had like a hundred assists and Murray had like fifty goals and it was perfect.

16:27 Speaker 2: Hence why those guys nearly you know, ripped Michael O'Connell to shreds when they found out that they had basically escorted Joe Thornton out the back door without even having a conversation with them.

16:40 Speaker 1: But I digress.

16:41 Speaker 3: Yeh, that's another episode.

16:43 Speaker 1: Right, Yeah we have old Gripes episode. Yeah, yeah, can we do one of those?

16:50 Speaker 3: So in my mind and I know we'll get to it later, but your top line is your best players, your your snipers. If you got a burgeron who can play defense, fine, but I don't think he technically has to. You know, that line has to be there, but they got to be snipers, and they gotta be your your top power play guys. Those they have to be there because I mean, that's that's how you win, is if you put the puck in the net and these guys have to be it. So if you guys want to talk, you want to talk who on this team?

17:22 Speaker 3: Maybe we'll get there.

17:24 Speaker 1: I will get there. I was going to get there. So us through Yourlleen, do we? So do we in your mind? Do we currently.

17:34 Speaker 2: Have a top line that fits the descriptors as you have just slaid them out for us?

17:40 Speaker 3: I would say two thirds of the top line.

17:45 Speaker 1: Yeah, right now.

17:48 Speaker 3: Well, so Caroline, do you want to get into this specifics or move on to the second line.

17:53 Speaker 1: Well, let's talk about the whole package and then see just how fase far so our second So tell us a little bit about your philosophy. Then what's the purpose of the second line.

18:06 Speaker 3: So your first line consider it like your elite scoring unit, right their their job is to score. So your second line is kind of to do both, right, score but also go against the other team's top two lines and shut them down. So again, if you think you had Marshan bergeron and whoever or else kind of played with those guys. Twenty eleven, they had Reki, right. Reki was forty years old and could barely skate, but he played with Marshan and Bergeran and they were perfect. So you want some consistent offense.

18:41 Speaker 3: Obviously, these guys are your top six, so they need to put the puck in the net. But again, if your top line is doing that, these guys go against the other team's top line and shuts them down. They're the guys that will, you know, kind of grind out the defenceman on the back end of the other team, you know, kind of make them tired. That's that's always one thing that kind of gets overlooked, is is kind of leaning on the other team's defense, especially in the playoffs. That's that's a great way to you know, win a series, steal a series.

19:13 Speaker 3: Is I mean, that's what Florida does the Boston all the time. They for check all the time and put pressure on the defense and make them tired. So right, just relentless. Yeah, And and the way I like to look at it is kind of compare it to baseball, where you've got like a five man starting pitching rotation. You don't want all pitchers that are the same. You want a little bit of difference of you know, people coming at just so if you've got the top line that's just come and coming and coming, maybe your second line is going to be, you know, your neutral zone speed guys that will you know, do the do the transition game or be a little bit more skilled then a little bit more for check.

19:49 Speaker 3: So again this is going to be like your Burson are on Marsh and Reki those types of players that you know play a little bit more defensive minded but definitely are offensive threats.

20:01 Speaker 1: And that was my question was these It sounds like then this particular line is a little bit more defensively minded. Their way takes place in multiple zones. And then I appreciate the example of someone like Marshand because it really kind of solidifies in my mind when it comes to you know, skill and ability. Top six they're all excellent players, They're all relatively on par in terms of the best at what they do. But when you want to compare someone like a David Pasternak, at least prior to this season, I would say Pasta or Alexandrovitchkin is this type of player I kind of think where they go to their place and you know, score their goal.

20:56 Speaker 1: Right, So prior to the season pasta effect only really ever, unless he got like a fantastic breakaway, he really went to like his office and he stood there and waited for the pass to snipe that goal.

21:09 Speaker 3: Right yep.

21:11 Speaker 1: Ovechkin like that's the kind of player that he is, Right, he goes to his spot and he scores his goals. Whereas if you think about someone like Bred Marshander, even I saw this a lot with more geeky this year, really knowing how to either evade people to get to a place to receive a good pass or to make that critical pass like get it in, but also figure out how to stop the opposing team before it becomes really the defenseman's problem.

21:45 Speaker 3: Yep, yep. And I would say, you know, players like a Nancy Kopetar probably is like a perfect center line second line center would be that type of player who plays that two hundred foot game, not necessarily sexy on the scoreboard, but definitely plays a game where he affects the game off the score sheet. That's kind of my hope for like a patra Is to get to that that point. I would say, you know, if this team was better. Geeky would be a perfect second line winger or center, and if Zaka could score again, it would be a good second line.

22:24 Speaker 3: So but we all know Zaka can't score, so he doesn't.

22:31 Speaker 2: Just you know, we're we're putting, we're putting, trying to put round peggs into you know, squere square. I mean this is yeah, you know, what what you're talking about is build building a team right based on what the specific players skill level is at.

22:53 Speaker 1: Where we we.

22:55 Speaker 2: Seem to have a management group that is forcing, not forcing, but they're not putting players in the right positions for success to succeed, or for the overall good of the team to be successful.

23:13 Speaker 1: And themselves and like the player themselves right. Certainly, we saw I think I think an exception in Jake Debrusk when he was put in a position that demanded more of him and he needed that apparently, right, and that worked out really really well for two years. But then you have a situation like with Charlie Coyle, who was always a very reliable third line center and they had no choice but to call upon him to serve as a center either in the first or the second line, and he had flashes of when he could do it, but he just didn't have what it took and doesn't have what it takes to consistently be in those two positions you could fill in, you know, but he couldn't maintain that that wasn't his role.

24:07 Speaker 2: And to always point when you look at you know, what is distinguishing the criteria of you know, those that are your first line, those that are your second line, and we'll get to the other lines, is that you know, in in any walk of life, you've got to put people in the roles that you know that they are capable of handling where they can garner success. And you know, in defensive players, I highly doubt that you know, if the coach comes to you and says, you know, hey, Joe Blow, you're playing up on the top line tonight, even though you're a third line player, what are you going to say?

24:50 Speaker 2: No, No, no, I'm not comfortable. I'm not comfortable doing that, or or vice versa. Right, they want to play right and they want to do what's for the team because they're team players.

25:02 Speaker 3: But yes, and I exactly I do.

25:06 Speaker 1: Before we dive into the second half of Before we dive into the second half lines. Let's just take a super quick word from our sponsor. All Right, Bruins fans, if you're thinking about picking up some new gear, now's the time. I'm already planning to grab a fresh poster neck jersey this fall. Who knows, maybe he's rocking a new letter on the front. The NHL Shop is running tons of season ending and summer sales right now, including twenty percent off fanatics gear. And here's the best part. When you shop through our link in the show notes, a portion of your purchases helps support this podcast.

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27:37 Speaker 1: All Right, so welcome back in. We're halfway through our forward line philosophy. So, Mo, we've talked about our top six. We've heard that phrase time and time again. Top six.

27:52 Speaker 4: Obviously, these are some of your best players, the most skilled, but we've already started to see with the second line that some of the responsibility is slowly shifting away from pure offensive power into more of a multi.

28:13 Speaker 3: You know, funk.

28:16 Speaker 1: Yes role. So where does that put the third line in today's game? Because I want to also hear from Maria your take on how maybe some of this has changed, because even from what you know, Bo and I are the same age. So we watched trap Era and Dead Hockey, which was a little bit had some similarities to to the big bad Ruins of your But let's talk about today. What is the third line today?

28:47 Speaker 3: Yeah, So for me, this one all depends on the coaches philosophy, and there's probably a couple of different routes that you can take. In my mind, this is basically going to be my workhorse line. So this is where a guy like Charlie Coyle is perfect. This is the line that I want to basically grind the other team down and basically just just own the game and make them have the momentum. So basically what this is is this is kind of referred to as the shutdown line. Right, So they're gonna be the guys that probably are a little bit more defensively minded than your second line, but they still have to be able to score.

29:34 Speaker 3: So if you look back at twenty eleven, a guy like Michael Ryder was kind of a perfect third line guy. He had that wicked wrist shot where he could almost score from anywhere, but he was also pretty underrated defensively. Where Maria Caroline, you guys probably remember in the playoffs when he basically like played as Tim Thomas and make that made that save against So it's yeah, so yeah, and.

30:01 Speaker 1: He actually scored, he scored.

30:03 Speaker 3: A game winning goal as at all.

30:05 Speaker 1: In that very same series to your point, So.

30:10 Speaker 3: Yeah, So also, I think you can always also use this line as as kind of like a developmental line for maybe some rookies. So if you're going to look at a guy like like Lycel, maybe this is a better line because not really fourth line, because they're really going to get what eight ten minutes a game. These guys are probably gonna get twelve, thirteen to fourteen minutes a game, So a little bit less responsibility. Probably not going to play against the top line, maybe the second, the third, the fourth line, but definitely a line where people can develop.

30:42 Speaker 3: But I think it's it's it's going to depend on on what the coach's philosophy is and how good the team wants to be, right, I mean, you look at Florida. You got Marshane on the third line. I mean, Marshane's not a third line winger, but that's where he plays because you know what awesome.

31:00 Speaker 2: Yeah, And Paul Maurice's philosophy to this conversation is his philosophy with regard to that line marshand and forget who else is on the line with him. But if they can score one goal per series, and these are Paul Maurice's words, they can score one goal per series, then they're doing their job. Then they're doing their job in addition to making life miserable because right when you're on the road, you don't get the last change, and so you need a third line grouping like that from a coaches standpoint, where you don't get that opportunity to, you know, get your top guys against the other team's top guys, right, So you've got to have that faith in that grinder, that grinder line, or that defensive you know, guys that are defensively responsible, that have a good chance of winning a face off, particularly if the face off is in your own end.

32:03 Speaker 3: Yep, yep. And that's where guys like Coil were great. In twenty eleven, you had Kelly who was a great third line center who won the face offs, did did the grinding, was a penalty kill specialist. I mean, he was what you wanted. So it's it, and it all depends where your team's at. You know, use them for a developmental line. You could use Life Cell and a couple other guys on that line, But for me, it's got to be probably one of your better skating lines as well. People that can can keep up and I mean, like.

32:38 Speaker 1: The other team's face right, right, right. How how much does this line in particular maybe get not necessarily changed up in terms of personnel, but changed in how they're used and how often they're used based on the hoosing team and yeah, potential that happened, there is this one that could the amount of time fluctuate to some degree or is it? Is it less about any of that and it's just that's just your particular job and you go out when we need you for that particular purpose. Yeah.

33:21 Speaker 3: No, it's a good question, and it probably depends on probably a bunch of different factors. But the way I see it is this line's probably also going to have more of your like penalty kill specialists. So if if your game is getting more fee and you yeah, so these are probably you know, in a lesson perfect world, you don't have burst Round or Marsh and who's gonna kill penalties? So you've got these guys right that are your Chris Kelly's or you know whoever else we've got that I can't think of. But uh, you know, maybe in a perfect world, you know, Johnny Beecher becomes a third line guy if he can developed you know, he plays wins the face, he could do penalty kill.

34:02 Speaker 3: You know, maybe there your second power play unit. Depending wasn't Castilla killing some penalties too before he had all those? And think so yeah, and I mean we'll get into the fourth line. But I think this line, your third and fourth lines, like your top two lines. You want them to kind of play off of each other. And again it's it's going to determine what style of play that line ultimately plays. Right, You've got dump and Chase, you've got cycle, you've got the load of high game, you've got you know, the neutral zone transition.

34:37 Speaker 3: So it really depends who the players are and what that coach's philosophy is. I mean, if if you go back to Monty, his whole thing was getting the defense activated, and that's why they were so good that first year because no one saw it coming and no one knew how to defend it. Then everybody knew what they were going to do and they could stop it. And the Bruins the longer.

35:03 Speaker 1: Minor details, right right.

35:06 Speaker 3: So I think again it's like the starting pitching kind of comparison is is you don't always want all four lines to play the same, and you don't want your bottom six to always play the same because then the other team kind adjusts and they know what's coming and they know how to beat the fore check or or what they're playing. So if you know this line still definitely has to score, So you just can't put a whole bunch of rookies or a whole bunch of grinders out there, which is why a guy like Writer and Kelly kind of worked because they could do both.

35:40 Speaker 3: So if you want, we can get into the fourth line, because it kind of segues into it, right And and I mean for me and Marie, I don't know if you know what what you think is. You've kind of seen like the big bad Bruins, but this is your energy, your physicality line. This is the line that basically goes out there and kicks the other team's ass, right, Yeah, I've.

36:01 Speaker 2: Never seen in all my years of watching hockey, you know. And and the game obviously has changed and evolved. Right there there there weren't you know, at a linux and specialists and you know, you had you guys on the bench. You had you know, one, two, three, four lines, and that's how your coaches for the most part, rolled them out. And you know, to some degree, I don't want to say the game was it wasn't as strategic, and that's no disrespect to what was happening back in those days.

36:35 Speaker 1: But man, that is a low line.

36:41 Speaker 2: I had ever seen anything like that, even in the days of the Big Bad Bruins, because not only not only did those guys kick ass, which the Big Bad Bruins did, but they could also, when needed, be counted on to score a goal. Not only did they grind down the opposing team, and you know, their their role was.

37:09 Speaker 1: Don't get scored on.

37:10 Speaker 2: Really, I mean short of that, don't get Yeah. Yeah, they they were. They were brutal to play against, which was a thing of beauty to watch back then.

37:24 Speaker 3: They were all very well. I guess Thornton wasn't fast, but I mean Pie and Campbell were fast. They were fearless. I mean, didn't Campbell break a leg and stay out there yeah, blocking shots?

37:35 Speaker 1: Yes he did.

37:37 Speaker 2: He did alty kill, Yeah, penalty kill on one leg. And I was in the building for that game, and the entire building was on their feet because we all knew something awful had happened, yeah to him, but the fact that he stayed out there on one freaking leg basically and kept blocking shots.

38:01 Speaker 3: So it's just perfect, you know that.

38:06 Speaker 2: And again, you know, you can't rewind the clock, right, but when you're looking at somewhat of a blueprint and a philosophical approach to how you want to build you know, a sequence or a series of lines. To me, that fourth line, that is a blueprint that I think a lot of other teams have picked up on and tried to replicate and duplicate and and develop and mirror.

38:40 Speaker 3: Yeah, I'd agree, And didn't Marshan start as a fourth line winger?

38:44 Speaker 1: He did? Yeah, I mean a lot of them will as well. Right, They're gonna as a way to develop them, as a way to like see what what do they see to that?

38:54 Speaker 3: Right?

38:55 Speaker 2: Because ultimate honestly, you know, and again no disrespect, but your fourth line is likely not going to be seeing the same amount of ice time as your first and second lines in theory, right, right, so you know it will give you a glimpse in a window. Is you know, can we trust these guys in the situation that we're putting them in as a fourth line? Can we trust them? Can we trust this player to make the right decision with that with the puck?

39:28 Speaker 1: Yeah? And so actually, one thing that you guys have brought up a few times, and I just want to make sure that we touch on for again some of our newer listeners or you know, newer fans to hockey because this year has seen such an explosion in hockey fandom. You know, when we're talking about these different lines, first of all, the minutes that get played, right, So when when you have your top lines, they're typically going to be seeing what twenty twenty three minutes, it's maybe twenty five if I mean, I.

40:02 Speaker 2: Think you want to keep them, you know, under the ideally because if not, you're going to wear them out right right right, they're out there for the regular shift, they're out on penalty, on power play, right, you know, on average, And again I'm just guessing I don't have.

40:20 Speaker 1: Many three minutes, but twenty minutes twenty minutes I think is yeah. And then so for your second line, it might then end up being probably closer to what like eighteen minutes eighteen is ish, yeah, and then you you then start to see a little bit of a drop off because I think I would expect a third liner to be getting somewhere maybe around fourteen ish minutes. And then, like you said, a fourth line is actually going to be seeing the least amount of ice time, like significantly less ice time, like less.

40:52 Speaker 3: Than single digits.

40:53 Speaker 2: Yeah, and some some nights it's single maybe eleven, but a light minutes some nights.

40:59 Speaker 1: It's single digits, right. If right, they might not need them, right. It all kind of depends on what the need is. And so the other thing, the other question that I wanted to put out there is when coaches are looking to send out certain lines, right, because like to your point, Maria, it's not that way anymore. Where it was just like okay, one two three four one two three four, right, Like, I mean, they don't do it that way anymore. There's a lot more strategy involved now, So you know who

41:36 Speaker 1: presumably you're sending out your top two lines based on maybe who's also out there at the same time or who's coming up. So how do coaches know when to send different lines out on the ice? Like who is the first line being paired up against? Are they out there at the same time as the other two team's best line, or is the other team sending out, you know, their third line. Is there any kind of predictable pattern or rule of thumb when it comes to that, or at least in your philosophy in the moverse what would be your philosophy for how you send them?

42:23 Speaker 2: I mean, I don't answer from it but there maybe instances right when you start the game and you're okay, first line against first line, right, But we have seen those instances where you know, for whatever reasons, you know, because say the second or third line had a particularly good game the night before, coaching staff or coaches rewarding them or right, so there's.

42:48 Speaker 1: Debut the home or whatever the case may be.

42:52 Speaker 2: Right, and you know, you know, particularly on home ice, because you know, as the home coach, you can pull them off the ice quick if things aren't going and then right you've got your third line out there against their first line. But if things aren't going well, you pull them off the ice and you throw your first line back out there. So you know, I don't know that there's necessarily any more kind of a rhyme or reason that coaches use other than they want to try to get the best matchups, right.

43:20 Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean, probably the biggest rule of thumb is like after an icing and it's the other team's fourth line, you put your top line out there. I mean, that's that seems to always be the case. I think when the Bruins won the Cup, they always started the fourth line to get that energy, to get that building going. So if you've got a line that you can know they're.

43:44 Speaker 2: Going to throw a big hit, right, Yeah, yeah, they would throw a big hit. And and you would even at away games too, you know, club clud hit so much newity doing in that line that you know he was not opposed, you know, to giving them a start here or there to just send a message, this is going to be a long night for you.

44:08 Speaker 3: Yep. And I think sometimes it will also be maybe the coach does players and not so much line matchups, because I think you'll always see Carolina and Brenda. Moore would always put Stall out there when there was a defensive zone face off because he'd pretty much always win it. Or you've got bergeron when he was playing, he'd always take the defensive zone draws. It looked like the Bruins were putting Beacher out there quite a bit to win a draw. So it's going to depend a lot on the situations. And then especially in the playoffs, you'll kind of see who is matching up well against who and maybe who's not.

44:43 Speaker 3: And that's always the biggest thing is when you're away the away team you got to change first, so the other coach can basically, you know, kind of match up against you, which is why that whole mice is just critical. It is, but i mean probably when Coyle was really good, when it was like, what was it, the coil haul line, they were always going against the other team's third line. So if you've got an upper like a like a higher level third line, put that against the other team's third line, you've created a great mismatch, and yeah, you're probably not giving up any goals or opportunities.

45:17 Speaker 3: I mean that's when Coyle, Frederick and Smith, when that line first started, they were unstoppable. So it's it's all gonna depend on, you know, matchups, who you're playing. I think the biggest thing to think about is just where where the game is, at, what period, what situation, And then usually you can kind of dictate and assume, all right, the top line's coming out, just just because even if they were just out there or you know, the fourth line. You know, sometimes you'll see the fourth line go down and force the goalie to freeze the pucks so they can get off the ice on the top line gets an offensive zone face off.

45:50 Speaker 3: So it's it's it's little things like that that you know, is kind of fun to watch. The game. Yeah, kind of like those little instances and that really sets like the good from the the the okay teams apart.

46:04 Speaker 1: So so I think we know for the most part the vacancies that we have everything. Yeah, but my question is, actually, now we're only talking forwards because I know you have opinions about the defenseman and we will talk about defenseman in another episode.

46:30 Speaker 3: Okay, what forwards.

46:33 Speaker 1: That we have left are actually not in the right spot that maybe they should be somewhere else based on what put your put put your coaching hat on, mo and tell me, tell us, tell us who would be.

46:56 Speaker 2: On the first line with David, because we know David is your number one Okay, yeah, first and foremost number one?

47:05 Speaker 1: Who who or who should get demoted?

47:10 Speaker 3: Yeah? Well all right, let's let's think about this. So you've got got Pasta for sure. Yeah, I would think the chances of Geeky coming back are probably pretty good. So let's just just assume you've got Geeky and Pasta as your two thirds of your top line. So I think Geeky can play center. But he was playing on the on the left side for the most part, right, Yeah, which seemed to suit him because it was kind of his off side, so we could do those one timers pretty easily. I did like the lind home at center option.

47:46 Speaker 3: I think that forces Lindholme not to have as much pressure on him to produce points. He can kind of I don't want to compare him to but he can take like the Bergeron esque route where you know, we'll take sixty seventy points from him. But as long as he can win face offs, be the catalyst that starts the offensive zone kind of pressure and momentum by winning the draw. But also play that two hundred foot game. You just let Kiki and Pasta cook and who cares outside of that. If you want to get really really really funky and weird, you put geeky and Pasta and you pair him with Lora.

48:31 Speaker 1: I'm just gonna told you we're not talking about defenceman.

48:34 Speaker 3: No, but Glorai, you're not tard.

48:36 Speaker 1: About Yeah, in the next episode mode.

48:42 Speaker 3: But he's a forward, so he counts. But I think if you're good, the guy that has to get off the top line is Zaka. It's it's over. That experiment is done. His defensive game doesn't make up for the fact that he can't score even when the net is wide open. He just misses the net. So I think your top line has to be at least right now, it's probably geeky lind Home in pasta. I think unless they sign like a Tavares or another, or or if they want Geeky to be center and they signed a big time left winger, I mean, it's got to be those three going into training camp, and they've got to play together at training camp.

49:27 Speaker 2: Well told us, Don told us that the focus was going to be at the wing position. So I don't think they're going to be doing anything of significance at that center position, which is mind boggling to me. Still haven't filled these gaping holes, But what the hell do I know?

49:49 Speaker 1: Anyways, So I get it.

49:52 Speaker 3: I mean I'd rather the Bruins focus on winger than center. I think down the middle they could get away with it. As long as they actually got like another couple top scoring wingers, I think they'd be okay.

50:07 Speaker 1: I mean Rakka should stay on that second line then, like you said, he's defensively, he's good, he's fine, he's just the offensive or does he make better align with your philosophy for the third line.

50:26 Speaker 3: I think he better aligns on my philosophy of trading him. So I mean, so, uh.

50:35 Speaker 1: Well, I guess that's enoughtion. I guess so basically we're stuck with what we have. It's not like the It's again, it's not like it was so cut and dry with Charlie Coyle obviously being mismatched in his roles in the expectations of him or Trent Frederick where they kept trying to make him be some more of a mid center and when you've said he really belongs on the fourth line, So who knows, maybe we'll get some fresh people in that they can then miss.

51:16 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think the Bruins have the makings of a good fourth line, and I would say a very good top line. Right, So you've got geeky lind Holm pasta and on your fourth line if you know, you've got Castelic already down there. So he's going to be a solid fourth line guy. He'll he'll hit, he'll probably feel that Gregory Campbell type role. You've got Beecher who is an RFA. But I would be very surprised if they don't bring him back. I mean, he's twenty four.

51:49 Speaker 1: He's the wild card. About whether or not they'll bring him.

51:52 Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't really care about cup Key.

51:55 Speaker 1: I mean I don't either.

51:56 Speaker 3: I will let him go. Yeah, I think Lauco would be another really good but if you're trying to save cap space, I think a guy like Riley Duran is a really good fourth line option.

52:11 Speaker 1: I mean, we don't forget Loco is League minimum pay as well, and he has a lot of speed, so he does have that energy.

52:19 Speaker 3: Right, He's an RFA, so he'll get a pay bump. I think he's making about seven eighty eight now, it'll probably make what Castelics make and it's like one and a half probably. I mean my favorite fourth line was Steen, so I kind of want like another Steam type, So I could see Duran being that guy because speed, for checking, just a lot of that stuff that shows up off the scoreesheet. So when it comes to your second and third line, I don't really know what the hell is gonna happen. We have nothing that you got middle stats, middle stats Okay, I don't know where his lots, but I think he could be a third line guy pretty well.

53:00 Speaker 3: Uh, you've probably got Licele, who I think could be a decent man. You wanted to be a second line guy so bad. But he's got to play with a guy that also can kind of match his speed and creativity. So I don't know if a guy like Patra, if if they think he's NHL ready, if you put him at the second line role, but then you've got Patra and Lycel, who I don't really want them going up against a lot like Austin Matthews and those guys will just I wouldn't feel comfortable.

53:33 Speaker 1: Yeah, comfortable with that.

53:36 Speaker 2: And they've got to address this secondary scoring right And to me, it was simple, overly simplistic. But that comes from you second line, you know, So you've got to go out and get some proven If you're going to focus on wingers, then you've got to go out and bite the bullet and get yourself a proven NHL commodity who's going to give you twenty five thirty.

54:10 Speaker 1: Goals with your eyes closed.

54:12 Speaker 2: I mean, I just don't know how you're going to sustain any success if you don't address your secondary scoring needs or lack of it.

54:24 Speaker 1: We need another Morgan geeky. We need to copy and paste him. Winger gave us their thirty goal most like we just need another guy like.

54:32 Speaker 3: Him, but I wish.

54:36 Speaker 1: So we're gonna wrap this up, but we want to thank you Mo for coming on the show to share your philosophy of forward lines. If you want to read more in depth and see some more specific examples again, check out our substack. Re Moe has already published that article and make sure you like an subscribe, and he will be back in our next episode to talk about defense. So day as always go Bes Goes